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Thread: Razorlab's 'simple' build

  1. #51
    Senior Member chetrickerman's Avatar
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    The 7163 is far superior to the GTX3076

    The carrillo rods are around 550 grams and the manley TT rods are around 650 grams


    Quote Originally Posted by DKevoX View Post
    ^^ I'll admit I'm a turbo newb (like complet newb. I understand exactly how they work but never cared to research the different manufactures and all the different features). So just gonna push this to find out more.

    That graph looks pretty identical (to me) as this one:


    I have no idea what "transient response" is lol. So I'll need to research that more, definitely have heard it discussed a lot related to turbos.

    Is the only advantage to the integrated circulation valve that it cleans up the engine bay? I have full AMS piping and a tial qr. So I think I should be fine with a recirc setup.

    I'll admit, I am an AMS fan. And it's cause all their shit has just always worked for me. I've gotten sick of everything else, i like that AMS just provides a worry free solution. Is their tune the absolute most aggressive and "best"? probably not, but it's reliable as hell which is "best" in my book. Their parts are always high quality and fit no issues. And they always provide good answers.

    So the appeal to me is that their setup seems to give me what I want, I can easily drive up there for the tune, I already have everything of theirs except the turbo lol, and I know I'll trust the setup. Trusting the setup/tune is huge for me, and I'm going to be hard pressed to get the same level of confidence in anything else. I've just watched soo many people try to push the limits with the same failed results over and over and over and over again.
    that is flywheel hp, not whp

  2. #52
    Global Mod of Things DKevoX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
    The 7163 is far superior to the GTX3076

    that is flywheel hp, not whp
    I know, and the other graph is a virtual dyno off an evoscan datalog. So really we are comparing apples to oranges no matter how you slice it. But looking at the shape of the graphs is what I was looking at. I think both have more than enough steam for my desired results.

    But I'm looking into the 7163 more now. Still, what is it that makes it superior? performance or reliability or both? And what evidence is there of this?
    Last edited by DKevoX; 04-19-2016 at 08:51 PM.

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    Razorlab's 'simple' build

    Both! Transient response is how quickly the turbo can change state i.e. No boost to boost. It's not something you can show but feel. It's like spool, sort of. Spool is how fast a turbo can provide boost from low RPM. Transient response would be letting off at 6k (really anywhere in the rpm) and getting back on, it's the delay from that change of state.

    The benefit of a CRV is that it's literally right there. Instead of the extra boost traveling to the UICP>IC>LICP>DV>Intake>Turbo it goes Turbo>CRV>Turbo. Makes it more responsive to release the extra pressure back.

    The technology behind the 7163 is superior in every aspect too. It's just a better turbo. You might be fine with a 3076 until you ride in a 7163 car and realize you'll just have more there. You don't need to max it out to tell the difference.

    Evidence will come down to the tuners/builders who have done both like @UT_EvoX @chetrickerman and such.

    I understand the appeal of AMS but you could benefit on skipping on them on this one

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    Global Mod of Things DKevoX's Avatar
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    Ok,

    Not going to be difficult and going to do some more research.

    I just still think there's a lot of a love affair people have with turbo's. They aren't a new thing. And I've watched repeatedly as the forum favorite turbo turned out to be a bust over and over and over again since 2008. So don't take offense when I take it all with a grain of salt.

    Transient response is spool then, as I've always considered it. Spool is simply how long it takes the turbo to spin up to max rpms. It has to be within "boost" range, or the range where the engine rpms create enough back pressure to actually spin it up. But yeah, I've driven/raced big turbo cars and understand the ridiculous lag that can come from a huge turbo. But that is all a factor of size mostly, and I still don't think there is that big of a difference in size between these 2, so the physics behind it will be the same. There's not much magic you can work to overcome this, unless using a different technology. Bring some porsche VGT technology to the evo and I'll jump all over that in a heartbeat! But for 2 turbos that are the same basic design and same rough size, I wouldn't expect much different then seeing the same basic resulting curve shapes and same basic performance.

    I'm looking at the 7163 though and the cbrd kit. So back to the regularly scheduled razorlab thread! didn't mean to hyjack it this badly :/

  5. #55
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Way too much boost on that EFR vd graph for 450whp than I want to run on track. Just not going to run that much.

    Was that on E85 Chet?

    Street, sure. Track? Nope. Seen too many failures over the years at the track for that.
    Last edited by razorlab; 04-19-2016 at 10:11 PM.

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    Razorlab's 'simple' build

    Yeah, just had a 1 hr text debate with dkevox about the 7163. He is very cynical.

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    Senior Member chetrickerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Way too much boost on that EFR vd graph for 450whp than I want to run on track. Just not going to run that much.

    Was that on E85 Chet?

    Street, sure. Track? Nope. Seen too many failures over the years at the track for that.
    Yes thats on E85

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    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Way too much boost on that EFR vd graph for 450whp than I want to run on track. Just not going to run that much.

    Was that on E85 Chet?

    Street, sure. Track? Nope. Seen too many failures over the years at the track for that.
    Yes thats on E85
    Thanks, yea, too much boost for the power for track use for me.

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    Razorlab's 'simple' build

    Quote Originally Posted by DKevoX View Post
    Ok,

    Not going to be difficult and going to do some more research.

    I just still think there's a lot of a love affair people have with turbo's. They aren't a new thing. And I've watched repeatedly as the forum favorite turbo turned out to be a bust over and over and over again since 2008. So don't take offense when I take it all with a grain of salt.

    Transient response is spool then, as I've always considered it. Spool is simply how long it takes the turbo to spin up to max rpms. It has to be within "boost" range, or the range where the engine rpms create enough back pressure to actually spin it up. But yeah, I've driven/raced big turbo cars and understand the ridiculous lag that can come from a huge turbo. But that is all a factor of size mostly, and I still don't think there is that big of a difference in size between these 2, so the physics behind it will be the same. There's not much magic you can work to overcome this, unless using a different technology. Bring some porsche VGT technology to the evo and I'll jump all over that in a heartbeat! But for 2 turbos that are the same basic design and same rough size, I wouldn't expect much different then seeing the same basic resulting curve shapes and same basic performance.

    I'm looking at the 7163 though and the cbrd kit. So back to the regularly scheduled razorlab thread! didn't mean to hyjack it this badly :/

    Haha transient response isn't spool

    Also yes it's physics but you're assuming they use the same properties. They might be similar in size but one has a MixedFlow compressor which increases/widens the compressor map and also a gamma-ti turbine which reduces inertia. So for the same size, the one with all that will make more power and spoon sooner. Physics


    Quote Originally Posted by Madmartigan View Post
    Yeah, just had a 1 hr text debate with dkevox about the 7163. He is very cynical.
    Don't be cynical dk. This isn't donkey punch injectors, this is from BorgWarner. BW is the same company that makes those Porsche VTG turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Way too much boost on that EFR vd graph for 450whp than I want to run on track. Just not going to run that much.

    Was that on E85 Chet?

    Street, sure. Track? Nope. Seen too many failures over the years at the track for that.
    Yes thats on E85
    Thanks, yea, too much boost for the power for track use for me.
    Haha don't use it all!
    Last edited by xfonts; 04-20-2016 at 12:37 AM.

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    I will try to explain transient response. It's a speed of reaction on a throttle. Dyno never shows it, because it's always WOT. And transient response lag is VERY significant.
    3076 is not that fast at all and it's not making much boost at low RPM, so to make it spool early you really have to drive it high gear.

    Only few downsides for 7163 is some surging during spool (though significantly lower than 3576), higher kit cost compare to stock location (but at this power level you don't really want stock location) and fuel expenses (because in the city if you're not detuning it - it will be in average on a higher boost than stock turbo).
    2.3L Fully Built MR, 640whp on E100 EFR7670 T4 EWG. Struggling with local shops and customs.

  11. #61
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfonts View Post


    Haha don't use it all!
    Yes, that is an option, but the point of my comment is that I don't want to have to use 30psi to get 450whp on track.

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    Global Mod of Things DKevoX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xfonts View Post

    Haha transient response isn't spool

    Also yes it's physics but you're assuming they use the same properties. They might be similar in size but one has a MixedFlow compressor which increases/widens the compressor map and also a gamma-ti turbine which reduces inertia. So for the same size, the one with all that will make more power and spoon sooner. Physics


    Don't be cynical dk. This isn't donkey punch injectors, this is from BorgWarner. BW is the same company that makes those Porsche VTG turbos.
    I understand that transient response isn't spool, I just meant it's how I've always thought of turbo lag. The lag time associated with getting power after hitting the gas pedal is because it takes some time to spin up the turbo, which is what I always thought "spool" was referencing. I know people use it commonly for where in the power range on a dyno graph does it actually spool up, but it would be the same effect if off throttle high in the engine rpm range for a little while and then getting back on throttle. The delay is because it takes time to spin the turbo back up, or spool the turbo.

    Now, I don't deny or disagree that the 7163 probably spins up faster than the 3076. But my issue is with how much faster? I am looking a lot more at it now, but I still have a hard time believe it's as significant of a difference as is trying to be made out to be here. As in: I feel we are actually talking a 1/10th or 1/100th of a sec difference, not a 1 second or 1/2 sec difference in response.

    It's also definitely not a lack of respect for BW. If they had a VTG turbo kit for the evo I'd buy it in a heartbeat, cause that is the technology that will make an impactful difference in spool time. However, just cause they make VTG turbo's doesn't really matter at all for the performance of a standard turbo setup.

    Anyway, I'll do my research now. No point in me debating further cause I obviously don't know shit and can be completely wrong. I do appreciate the push in this direction as it's gotten me looking now and I'll find out if it's right for me!

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    Response difference is very obvious. It's not some small % or milliseconds difference. You can feel that car is way snappier.
    I don't understand why you think that VTG gives more value than mixed flow and titanium wheel.
    My buddy with 7163 complained that it's going too fast into boost. After tuned stock turbo.
    2.3L Fully Built MR, 640whp on E100 EFR7670 T4 EWG. Struggling with local shops and customs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xfonts View Post


    Haha don't use it all!
    Yes, that is an option, but the point of my comment is that I don't want to have to use 30psi to get 450whp on track.
    Why not run the 7670? Made 470MD on 28psi IWG. If your looking for 450DJ then you won't be anywhere near 30psi. I tracked the 7670 down here in socal. 7670 by far the funnest turbo I ever ran. Ran plenty of setups and currently on the 8374 but miss the 7670

  15. #65
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    @Black E

    Do you run a larger -AN feed line from the tank/surge to the rail? If so, what size/kind of line and what length is it?

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    Senior Member DereksX's Avatar
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    -8AN feed. I can put up some pics of mine later today of the fuel system.
    WTF Built 2.0l

  17. #67
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DereksX View Post
    -8AN feed. I can put up some pics of mine later today of the fuel system.
    What was the length of -8AN feed line you used?

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    Senior Member Black E's Avatar
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    Yes I run a -8an line from the dual pump Y to the rail. Is probably around 15-18' all together.
    Why?

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    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black E View Post
    Yes I run a -8an line from the dual pump Y to the rail. Is probably around 15-18' all together.
    Why?
    I was curious on the length used as I can't really find that data point anywhere. Thanks!

  20. #70
    Senior Member Black E's Avatar
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    Just buy a 20' length of whatever your going to use in case you make a mistake. You can see some of it here:
    https://www.boostedforums.net/showth...ll=1#post12730

  21. #71
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black E View Post
    Just buy a 20' length of whatever your going to use in case you make a mistake. You can see some of it here:
    https://www.boostedforums.net/showth...ll=1#post12730
    Thanks!

    btw, how hard is it to take the 4B11 head off? I've done the 4G63 a bunch of times. I was thinking of pulling the head myself to save some labor cost and to get a better picture of what's going on.

    Any special tools I need? Is it a bitch to get to the timing chain tensioner with the motor in the car?

  22. #72
    Senior Member Black E's Avatar
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    The hardest is getting the stock turbo out of the way.
    To undo the tensioner you have 2 options. 1 is to follow the FSM "maintenance" procedure which requires a special tool to push on the chain towards the rear of the car and then there's a special bolt (is the only 10mm on the central area) on the timing chain cover that gets removed so you can stick a small Allen key or the like.
    2 and the one I would do is simply to remove the whole timing chain cover since no matter what you'll have to remove the whole thing to get the head off.

    You'll need a long T55 torx key/socket to remove the OEM head bolts. Also know that you'll have to remove the cams to get to the head bolts.
    Arm your self with the "overhaul" section of the FSM and that should give you all the technical points on the delicate steps like removing the cams.

    If it was me I would work it in these steps:
    -Remove EX manifold. You'll have to remove the DP and all 3 turbo supports to be able to move the turbo out of the way to get the manifold off...
    -Remove IM/TB.
    -Remove Tstat housing.
    -Remove passenger motor mount.
    -Remove acc belt, pulleys, crank pulley.
    -Remove valve and timing chain covers.
    -Remove timing chain tensioner, chain and tensioners.
    -Remove cams.
    -Remove head bolts.

  23. #73
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    Check this "how to":

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2V...?ddrp=1&hl=en#

    It was made by some guy from another forum. Not all steps are really necessary. Do you have the Mitsubishi Service Manual?

    I replaced my camshafts once and it was easy to deal with the chain tensioner. I used the Tomei tool, it's overpriced, but make things much easier.

  24. #74
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black E View Post

    If it was me I would work it in these steps:
    -Remove EX manifold. You'll have to remove the DP and all 3 turbo supports to be able to move the turbo out of the way to get the manifold off...
    -Remove IM/TB.
    -Remove Tstat housing.
    -Remove passenger motor mount.
    -Remove acc belt, pulleys, crank pulley.
    -Remove valve and timing chain covers.
    -Remove timing chain tensioner, chain and tensioners.
    -Remove cams.
    -Remove head bolts.
    Ahhhhhh. This makes it clearer, THANK YOU! Yea I'll pay the shop to do that then. I would do it if I had the time and current patience.

    If I had some time off work coming up... but I do not.

  25. #75
    Senior Member Black E's Avatar
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    Yeah, the motor needs to be pulled out anyway and it's much easier to dismantle the whole thing out of the car.

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