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Thread: Brembo's now blackbo's - time to replace?

  1. #26
    Senior Member Hiboost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    If i change my calipers, i'm going to do AP 6 pistons for SURE. Once i get my 335 stickies this may be necessary.
    A good thing about Big Brake Kits is that you aren't pushing the limits of the braking system nearly as much which means brake pad usage is much more predictable.

    At a time attack back in 2014 at Sebring I managed to stomp on the brakes so hard that I dented the pads and TI backing plates when everything was at crazy temps. Somehow when I assembled my front bumper I didn't notice that the brake ducts became partially blocked. When I use the TI backing plates with fresh pads they took some effort to get perfectly flat again. What I thought was "flat enough" ended up making my brakes feel very squishy until all the gaps were compressed so I had to really work them over with a vice and hammer along with some sanding.
    Chris Wirth
    Build: HiboostTuning.com
    2011 Octane Blue Evo X MR
    Best 1/4 Mile ET & Speed: 11.677 @ 119.06
    STM Mustang Dyno: 390 whp / 360 wtq

    2017 Global Time Attack - Limited AWD Class
    2nd - Road Atlanta

    2017 CSCS Time Attack - Street AWD Class
    1st - Mosport DDT 1:38.391 (Record)
    1st - TMP 1:17.644 (Record)
    1st - TMP Reverse 1:23.944 (Record)
    1st - Shannonville 1:59.748 (Record)

  2. #27
    Senior Member razorlab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboost View Post

    At a time attack back in 2014 at Sebring I managed to stomp on the brakes so hard that I dented the pads and TI backing plates when everything was at crazy temps. Somehow when I assembled my front bumper I didn't notice that the brake ducts became partially blocked. When I use the TI backing plates with fresh pads they took some effort to get perfectly flat again. What I thought was "flat enough" ended up making my brakes feel very squishy until all the gaps were compressed so I had to really work them over with a vice and hammer along with some sanding.
    What pads and tires where you using?

  3. #28
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    That's really interesting..... I'm still at pretty low power levels so obviously YMMV. I'm dumping way less kinetic energy into heat than you are at the end of a straight.

    My only thing is i'm really inclined to stick with stock diameter rotors if i upgrade for the weight savings..... not 100% convinced i need the extra heat capacity. If i stay at ~310 whp i very well may be able to comfortably get away with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik@MIL.SPEC View Post
    Technically speaking, modding cars is a "waste of money." But here we all are. On a car forum. Modifying our cars
    Racing cars makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    I have nothing to contribute, as I run XP12s and only do light track days (still my daily), but my god this picture arouses me.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rico05 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    I have nothing to contribute, as I run XP12s and only do light track days (still my daily), but my god this picture arouses me.
    He's measuring bump steer in that pic. Determining how much the steering angle changes, in thousands of an inch, per inch of suspension travel.

    A poor suspension/steering configuration might change 3/4" from top to bottom (5+ inches of vertical travel) while a properly setup system will change 0.015" or less.
    8/23/19: David Koch has died at 79.
    One down, uno mas.

  6. #31
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    My calipers look more like "flawlessninja"s ones. I've ended up giving them a birthday with new seal's & had to replace some scoured pistons. Couldn't buy new pistons from Mitsubishi as they they consider the brake caliper "A non service item"!!!! LOL anyway pulled some from a Subaru STI Brembo which shares the dimension. I see you can get stainless steel replacement items but the wow $$$$$$$. Think I'd rather just change out the calipers to proper race specs items that can take the abuse - Will probably end up with AP's or Endless next season on the front's. Looked at brake ducting - don't really have any area's free to pick up cool air from. I have a Dual engine oil cooler claiming one fog light duct & an AMS SST trans cooler the other.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yxd68 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rico05 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    I have nothing to contribute, as I run XP12s and only do light track days (still my daily), but my god this picture arouses me.
    He's measuring bump steer in that pic. Determining how much the steering angle changes, in thousands of an inch, per inch of suspension travel.

    A poor suspension/steering configuration might change 3/4" from top to bottom (5+ inches of vertical travel) while a properly setup system will change 0.015" or less.
    The whiteline kit with psrs nets you nearly .3 inches change in toe over 6 inches of travel :/
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik@MIL.SPEC View Post
    Technically speaking, modding cars is a "waste of money." But here we all are. On a car forum. Modifying our cars
    Racing cars makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yxd68 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rico05 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    I have nothing to contribute, as I run XP12s and only do light track days (still my daily), but my god this picture arouses me.
    He's measuring bump steer in that pic. Determining how much the steering angle changes, in thousands of an inch, per inch of suspension travel.

    A poor suspension/steering configuration might change 3/4" from top to bottom (5+ inches of vertical travel) while a properly setup system will change 0.015" or less.
    Oh, I'm quite aware of what he is doing thanks. I just enjoy seeing folks actually do proper setup work, and HP does so consistently.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    The whiteline kit with psrs nets you nearly .3 inches change in toe over 6 inches of travel :/
    Interesting. I have not measured mine, and I have the Whiteline RCA and WALK as well. I will check with my setup guys next time I am by the shop.
    Last edited by rico05; 09-09-2017 at 04:12 PM.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    The whiteline kit with psrs nets you nearly .3 inches change in toe over 6 inches of travel :/
    Not sure what you're saying here. The kit reduces the factory BS by 0.3"? Or makes it 0.3" in the final setting? What final readings did you get?

    I've always been able to get < 0.015" total steering change over full vertical travel. So 0.300" sounds like A LOT!!

    For example:

    Image1.jpg

    The red line (0.537" shim) produced an 0.011" change from full up to full down. I was happy with that value.
    8/23/19: David Koch has died at 79.
    One down, uno mas.

  11. #36
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    I dug up these graphs made..... it seems in the graph i converted toe out in inches to degrees.

    Mods: Whiteline RCK, Perrin PSRS, Vorshlag Top hats at max caster. Stock anti-dive. Stock LCA.

    The following curves are with the vorshlag tophats at maximum camber and camber bolts dialed out to give more positive camber.

    camber_curve_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg

    lbtc_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg



    The following graphs are with stock position of struts in the vorshlag tophats.



    1_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg


    2_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik@MIL.SPEC View Post
    Technically speaking, modding cars is a "waste of money." But here we all are. On a car forum. Modifying our cars
    Racing cars makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty.

  12. #37
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    Good Stuff!!

    ( And it's re-assuring to know I'm not the only suspension-anal-retentive person here. )

    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    I dug up these graphs made..... it seems in the graph i converted toe out in inches to degrees.

    Mods: Whiteline RCK, Perrin PSRS, Vorshlag Top hats at max caster. Stock anti-dive. Stock LCA.

    The following curves are with the vorshlag tophats at maximum camber and camber bolts dialed out to give more positive camber.

    camber_curve_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg

    lbtc_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg



    The following graphs are with stock position of struts in the vorshlag tophats.



    1_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg


    2_55c1943f65c7c105ae98e6703cd64127b6585656.jpg
    8/23/19: David Koch has died at 79.
    One down, uno mas.

  13. #38
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    @Yxd68 what vehicle are your graphs from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik@MIL.SPEC View Post
    Technically speaking, modding cars is a "waste of money." But here we all are. On a car forum. Modifying our cars
    Racing cars makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    what vehicle are your graphs from?
    1984 Mustang SVO with [mostly] KONI & MM suspension stuff. The assorted graph lines are the shim/spacer height of the steering arm (ball joint attachment) to the steering arm (on the spindle). Top spacer in these pics.
    Img_6620.jpgImg_6622.jpg
    8/23/19: David Koch has died at 79.
    One down, uno mas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboost View Post
    These cars definitely need dedicated brake cooling ducts for anything more than a few moderately paced laps around a road course. Once you add some power your speed on the straights goes up, with that speed you need more braking and more cooling or heat simply gets out of control.
    Hey Chris hope all is well with you and the EVO..

    Mine was down for 16 months(needed a rebuilt motor and a rebuilt SST. Chaaaching!

    I've been running a dedicated brake cooling setup with backing plates for a 4 years now.

    It allowed me to get 80K out of my front calipers before swapping them out.

    Also my front pads and rotors life was extended about 25% as well.

    I'll see if I can dig up where I bought the plates from....

    You can see the ducting behind my drivers side fog light opening. You also can see the NACA ducts mounted in front of the radiator down low...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #41
    Senior Member Hiboost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorlab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboost View Post

    At a time attack back in 2014 at Sebring I managed to stomp on the brakes so hard that I dented the pads and TI backing plates when everything was at crazy temps. Somehow when I assembled my front bumper I didn't notice that the brake ducts became partially blocked. When I use the TI backing plates with fresh pads they took some effort to get perfectly flat again. What I thought was "flat enough" ended up making my brakes feel very squishy until all the gaps were compressed so I had to really work them over with a vice and hammer along with some sanding.
    What pads and tires where you using?
    Back in the day it was Raybestos ST-43 and without properly flowing ducting it was enough to make those pads turn to molten after several laps. Tires were Pirelli DH slicks so when threshold braking on slicks it really pounded them into submission. These days I've stuck with higher temp rated endurance compounds to reduce running costs and braking is still plenty for Pirelli Trofeo R tires. The pads I've settled on for now are Pagid RSL and I have a set of Hawk DTC-30 with a little higher bite but lower temp ratings that seem to be as good or better than the Raybestos ST-43.
    Chris Wirth
    Build: HiboostTuning.com
    2011 Octane Blue Evo X MR
    Best 1/4 Mile ET & Speed: 11.677 @ 119.06
    STM Mustang Dyno: 390 whp / 360 wtq

    2017 Global Time Attack - Limited AWD Class
    2nd - Road Atlanta

    2017 CSCS Time Attack - Street AWD Class
    1st - Mosport DDT 1:38.391 (Record)
    1st - TMP 1:17.644 (Record)
    1st - TMP Reverse 1:23.944 (Record)
    1st - Shannonville 1:59.748 (Record)

  17. #42
    Senior Member Hiboost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yxd68 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HispanicPanic View Post
    what vehicle are your graphs from?
    1984 Mustang SVO with [mostly] KONI & MM suspension stuff. The assorted graph lines are the shim/spacer height of the steering arm (ball joint attachment) to the steering arm (on the spindle). Top spacer in these pics.
    Pretty interesting graphs! I feel like my setup is working pretty good, maybe it's time to measure what's really going on and see how it compares!
    Chris Wirth
    Build: HiboostTuning.com
    2011 Octane Blue Evo X MR
    Best 1/4 Mile ET & Speed: 11.677 @ 119.06
    STM Mustang Dyno: 390 whp / 360 wtq

    2017 Global Time Attack - Limited AWD Class
    2nd - Road Atlanta

    2017 CSCS Time Attack - Street AWD Class
    1st - Mosport DDT 1:38.391 (Record)
    1st - TMP 1:17.644 (Record)
    1st - TMP Reverse 1:23.944 (Record)
    1st - Shannonville 1:59.748 (Record)

  18. #43
    Senior Member Hiboost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAZMAT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiboost View Post
    These cars definitely need dedicated brake cooling ducts for anything more than a few moderately paced laps around a road course. Once you add some power your speed on the straights goes up, with that speed you need more braking and more cooling or heat simply gets out of control.
    Hey Chris hope all is well with you and the EVO..

    Mine was down for 16 months(needed a rebuilt motor and a rebuilt SST. Chaaaching!

    I've been running a dedicated brake cooling setup with backing plates for a 4 years now.

    It allowed me to get 80K out of my front calipers before swapping them out.

    Also my front pads and rotors life was extended about 25% as well.

    I'll see if I can dig up where I bought the plates from....

    You can see the ducting behind my drivers side fog light opening. You also can see the NACA ducts mounted in front of the radiator down low...
    After 6.5 years of heavy use I'm starting to see a few things pop up... still have to get my SST transmission sent to Kozmic for some upgrades as I'm using backup #2 after my first used SST lost the same 4th gear clutch fork sensor as my original one. Chalk it up as bad luck I guess but I was able to get them to hold 350 wtq reasonably well.

    The Ti plates I used for the front were from Girodisc and have worked reasonably well, when they warped it was definitely a result of not enough airflow and using the Raybestos st-43 pads past their temperature range. Now off to my garage to track down where my power steering fluid is leaking, likely it's in the line just before the rack or the rack itself which would be less than stellar news!
    Chris Wirth
    Build: HiboostTuning.com
    2011 Octane Blue Evo X MR
    Best 1/4 Mile ET & Speed: 11.677 @ 119.06
    STM Mustang Dyno: 390 whp / 360 wtq

    2017 Global Time Attack - Limited AWD Class
    2nd - Road Atlanta

    2017 CSCS Time Attack - Street AWD Class
    1st - Mosport DDT 1:38.391 (Record)
    1st - TMP 1:17.644 (Record)
    1st - TMP Reverse 1:23.944 (Record)
    1st - Shannonville 1:59.748 (Record)

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